Posts Tagged ‘Wilk’

PODCAST:

S3 – Wrap-Up Episode (finale)*

Listen to the podcast here (click to play/right click and select “save target as” to download):

SHOW NOTES:

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Ryan in his “robot” mode.

To wrap things up this year we attempted to do a season Wrap-Up Episode. Unlike last year, the conversation quickly devolved from review of the entire Season Three line up and turned more circuitously to reflections on the entire history of the podcast and the trials and tribulations of the hosts as they tried to keep this beast afloat. The discussion is more celebratory and, at times, nonsensical. We brought back two past guests: Mike O’Reilly and John (a/k/a Dole) Doyle to bring in some outside perspective.

Occasionally we did manage to get into the art of literature and film and there were some coherent thoughts that managed to squeak thru. All in all, we hope our jovial spirit puts a nice cap to this podcast and provides some reflective laughter along the way. Apologies for the general absurdity and thank you again for checking us out!

-Ryan

The NDIOS crew: Wilk, Rick and Ryan.

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RELATED LINKS:

Hosts:

Ryan Sean O’Reilly

David Wilkinson a/k/a “Wilk”

Rick

 

Guests:

Dole’s band’s website and links to videos of the band: (www.i-decline.com)

Click here for other episodes with Dole.

Click her for Mike O’Reilly’s YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/TheMoreilly318

Click for other episodes with Mike O’Reilly

Wilk’s other podcast with his wife Laura Valle: “How to Avoid Murder …and other awkward situations

 

RELATED EPISODES:

“Roadside Picnic (1972)” by Arkady and Boris Strugatsky (book)

“Stalker (1979)” by Andrei Tarkovsky (Alexander Kaidanovsky) (movie) – Russian with English subtitles

“Dune (Dune Chronicles #1) (1965)” by Frank Herbert (book)

Film: “Dune (1984)” by David Lynch (Kyle MacLachlan) and SyFy: “Frank Herbert’s Dune (2000)” by John Harrison (William Hurt)

“I Am Legend” by Richard Matheson (book)

“True Detective” by Cary Joji Fukunaga (Matthew McConaughey) (miniseries)

“The Body Snatchers (1955)” by Jack Finney (book)

“Something Wicked This Way Comes” by Ray Bradbury (book)

“The Devil Rides Out (Black Magic #1) (1934)” by Dennis Wheatley (book)

“Nineteen Eighty-Four” by George Orwell (book)

“Watchmen” by Alan Moore (writer) / Dave Gibbons (artist) (graphic novel)

“Naked Lunch” by William S. Burroughs (book)

“Slaughterhouse-Five” by Kurt Vonnegut (book)

 

* DISCLAIMER: Please be advised that the views and opinions of the hosts and guests of NDIOS are completely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and beliefs of the other hosts and guests or that of NDIOS.

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PODCAST:

S3 WrapUp – So long, and thanks for all the fish! (Wrap-Up preview and a Goodbye)*

SHOW NOTES:

It is with a great deal of regret that I must announce that our podcast, No Deodorant in Outer Space (NDIOS) has come to a close. After a great deal of introspection I have decided to end things here at the finality of Season Three. The decision did not come easily, but it is one I felt I had to make. When I started this podcast with my founding co-hosts nearly three years ago I did so because of my love of fiction and in particular my love of science fiction and fantasy. The podcast was to be an ancillary project to my main focus of writing, however, over time I realized I was using more and more energy on the podcast and less and less on writing. There are other factors that went into this decision as well and in this preview to our Season Three Wrap-Up episode Rick, Wilk and I discuss some of the other stuff going on that added to the decision.

We are releasing this preview to let everyone know that we are done and that there will be only one more release (that being the Season Three Wrap-Up discussion episode).  As mentioned on the episode I wanted to provide the names and some links to other podcasts you can find that related to Science Fiction and Fantasy. I love the podcast medium and all that it offers the world as at outlet and alternative for an iimg_8377-jpgnnumerable multitude of topics. Please continue to listen and support podcasts.

NDIOS was a crazy project I started with long-time friends. I enjoyed sharing my time with them to discuss our shared (and sometimes not so shared) interests and then to share that with the world. We may not have always gotten things right and we may also have gotten carried away at times, but I hope that along the way people were able to learn something, discover something and laugh at something — even if it was just a brief shake of the head and smirk at the sheer idiocy and lunacy that our mics captured.

In all sincerity, thanks for checking us out.

-Ryan

RELATED PODCASTS:

Please check out some of these other related podcasts (#trypod):

geeks-guide

Geek’s Guide to the Galaxy. Author David Barr Kirtley discusses geek culture with guests such as George R. R. Martin (#22), Richard Dawkins (#46), Paul Krugman (#61), Simon Pegg (#39), Margaret Atwood (#94), Philip Pullman (#76), Neil deGrasse Tyson (#32), and Ursula K. Le Guin (#65). The A.V. Club calls the show, “An informative and impressively in-depth podcast well worth checking out,” and io9 lists it as one of “13 Smart Podcasts That Will Feed Your Hunger for Knowledge and Ideas.” NPR’s earbuds.fm lists the show as a recommended podcast, and CBC Radio writes, “You may not think a podcast about science fiction and fantasy would be the place to go for political insight, but — it is. Geek’s Guide to the Galaxy manages to be more insightful about politics than many pundits.” Help crowdfund us at patreon.com/geeks.

sword-and-laser

Sword & Laser. Read along with the Sword and Laser book club! From classic science fiction to the latest gritty fantasy, we cover it. Subscribe for book discussions, author interviews, hot releases, and news from the genre fiction world! By Tom Merritt and Veronica Belmont.

 

functional-nerds

Functional Nerds is the weekly podcast from author/blogger Patrick Hester and Musician/Blogger John Anealio focusing on science fiction and fantasy media: television, film, comics, and new media such as fan films, audio dramas, online animated comics and more, technology, gadgets and all things Apple as well as music and the occasional video game.

 

speculate

Speculate! is a podcast for writers, readers, and fans, run by Gregory A. Wilson and Bradley P. Beaulieu, two writers of speculative fiction. Speculate! will be sharing podcasts of several different types, including: Fiction Reviews – discussions of novels or short fiction, Author Interviews – interviews or roundtables with some of the great and new voices in speculative fiction, Writing Technique – nuts and bolts discussions of writing technique that stem from the works we’ve reviewed, Artist Interviews – just to shake things up, we thought we’d include some interviews with various artists in the speculative fiction arena. Michael R. Underwood has also joined this podcast.

 

beyond-the-tropeBeyond the Trope. We’re a podcast for nerds, dedicated to exploring the deeper side of genre fiction, popular art, comics, and movies. Hosted by: Giles Hash, Michelle Graham and Emily Singer. Hosts: Marshall Hampton and Aaron Southworth.

 

mad-writers-union

Mad Writers Union is a podcast by new authors for new authors, providing speculative destruction, one episode at a time. The hosts, Tim Boerger, Nina Niskanen and Jay Wolf, met in Viable Paradise class of 2015 (also known as VP XIX), got to talking and decided they wanted to start a podcast where they could work out their writing troubles. Mad Writers Union is that podcast.

 

unreliable-narrators

Unreliable Narrators. We’re talking about all things genre fiction, from novels to tv and film, comics and beyond. We’re writers, readers, fans, and now podcasters! Check us out at unreliablenarrators.net. Hosted by: Christopher Cornell, Chia Evers, George Galuschak and Cath Schaff-Stump.

 

i-should-be-writing

I Should Be Writing. Writing interviews and how-tos from a SF writer who’s still learning. Hosted by: Mur Lafferty.

ditch-diggers

 

Ditch Diggers. The new podcast from podcast award winners Mur Lafferty and Matt Wallace, we look at the business of writing, all the dirty details and nasty secrets no one else will talk about. Bad agents, deals that fell through, and worse. But still, every day we get up and go to work, because this is our job.

 

writing-excusesWriting Excuses. Brandon Sanderson, Mary Robinette Kowal, Howard Tayler, and Daniel Wells discuss writing techniques in a fast-paced, 15-minute format. Hosts also now include: Piper J. Drake, Wesley Chu and Mary Anne Mohanraj.

 

scott-siglerScott Sigler Audiobooks. New York Times best-selling novelist Scott Sigler gives away all of his stories as free, serialized audiobooks. Described as “Stephen King meets Michael Crichton meets Chuck Palahniuk,” Scott’s stories of hard-science horror will have you tapping a vein as you Jones for next week’s fix. Subscribe to hear major-release hardcover novels read by the author, as well as short fiction and the “FridayFix,” a random piece of weekly nonsense. For more info on the author, visit http://www.scottsigler.com.

 

hello-from-the-magic-tavernHello, from the Magic Tavern. Hi. I’m Arnie. I fell through a portal behind a Burger King into the magical land of Foon. I’m still trying to get my bearings, but I have my podcasting gear and get a weak WiFi signal from the Burger King so I figured I might as well set up shop at the nearby inn and interview some people. When in Foon…  Hosted by: Arnie Niekamp, Usidore the Blue (Matt Young), Chunt the shapeshifter (Adal Rifai).

 

drunks-and-dragonsDrunks & Dragons. Join us on our weekly podcast as our new group of adventurers learn the ropes in the Dungeons and Dragons universe
(GeeklyInc.com). Hosted by: Mike Bachmann, Jennifer Cheek, Nika Howard, Tim Lanning and Michael DiMauro (Dungeon Master).

 

horrible-horror-podcast

Horrible Horror is a podcast about the worst horror movies we can find. The worst of the worst , movies that are so bad it’s scary. Each week we watch and discuss a different horror movie. We watch the worst of the worst so you don’t have too.

 

how-to-avoid-murder-logo
How to Avoid Murder… and other awkward situations. A look at famous or horrific murders, yankee candle parties and smililar events, and tips on how to avoid them. The only podcast that can save your life and maybe get you out of a co-ed baby shower. Worse case scenario you just listed to an idiot and his long time companion talk about true crime for an hour. Hosted by Wilk (NDIOS co-host) and Laura.

 

 

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* DISCLAIMER: Please be advised that the views and opinions of the hosts and guests of NDIOS are completely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and beliefs of the other hosts and guests or that of NDIOS.

PODCAST:

S3E12M – Dune (movie and SyFy)*

SHOW NOTES:

This was easily one of our most decisive episodes. Rick walked off, I did not want to discuss the TV adaptation, and Ryan had to fix our broken home. In the end, Ryan lost the most for caring the most. The heart and soul of our podcast held true and pushed through both movies, with indifference from Wilk and absence from Rick.

If a consensus could be reached it was only that Dune, the movie, was something apart from the mainstream. It was delightfully weird and inaccessible. To a casual viewer, I think it would be unwatchable. Unless you are into that sort of thing.

But out listeners and Ryan deserved better than what they got. For the first time in the history of the show I would like to apologize for my conduct. And most importantly Ricks. Or as I call him, Captain “I walked off the episode I insisted we do” Fantastic.

So, until next time, wash your space balls thoroughly, as there is no deodorant in outer space.

– Wilk

WRITTEN FILM REVIEWS:

Film: “Dune (1984)” by David Lynch (Kyle MacLachlan)

Ryan: 4 Stars “…this captures the soul of the book…a lot more stylized…David Lynch gets a little edge because of the risks that they took …”

Wilk: 3 1/2 Stars “…at some point, odd things happen to you in life that aren’t what you expect, but in the end you get what you want…that’s what Dune is…”

Rick: 4 Stars “…even though David Lynch’s movie doesn’t really follow, technically, everything in the book, it really captures the imagery…”

 

 

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SyFy: Frank “Herbert’s Dune (2000)” by John Harrison (William Hurt)

Ryan: 3 1/2 Stars “…they did put a lot of effort into it and its enjoyable if you really want to see something that’s closer to the book…”

Wilk: 3 Stars “…it was more literal than the David Lynch version, but less ambitious…”

Rick: 0 Stars “…it was a waste of time…the acting made it horrible…I saw part of it before I gave up on it…”

 

 

FUN FACTOIDS:

jodorowskys-dune-cover

On the show, Ryan mentioned watching a fascinating documentary about a movie version of Dune that never happened, but which likely influenced the science fiction film genre for years due to the various creative teams being assembled by this off-the-wall director (Alejandro Jodorowsky). Though the film never happened, a great deal of work was done in pre-production and the resulting documentary about this director’s journey is a compelling watch of what-might-have-been for Dune fans. If you are a Dune fan you’ll want to check out “Jodorowsky’s Dune.”

Ryan also talked about another science fiction/fantasy book review podcast that relayed a fairly recent announcement by production company “Legendary Entertainment” to acquire film rights for Dune, so there may be another visual version coming out in the future. That podcast is known as “Sword and Laser” and the relevant episode with a link to a news article can be found here: http://swordandlaser.com/home/2016/11/22/sl-podcast-273-han-solos-big-sister. After recording, Dole, found this article announcing a new director for the possible remake: http://www.cinemablend.com/news/1619960/the-dune-remake-has-its-director-and-we-couldnt-be-more-thrilled.

David Lynch’s depiction of the vile Baron Vladimir Harkonnen reminded Ryan of the infamous Countess Elizabeth Bathory from Hungary whom was rumored to have bathed in the blood of virgins to retain her youth. Here’s the Wikipedia article on her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_B%C3%A1thory.

krullIn discussing the various members of the cast for the Lynch version of the book, we gave a shout out to a childhood favorite which featured Dune actress Francesca Annis: Krull!

Lastly, the epic production behind David Lynch’s film version of Dune is legendary. At one point crews down in Mexico were combing the desert to remove trash and debris so that the sands would be pure enough for the rich landscape of planet Arrakis. This is all to reminiscent of a classic scene in Mel Brook’s famed Star Wars parody: Space Balls. Please enjoy this clip:

 

 

* DISCLAIMER: Please be advised that the views and opinions of the hosts and guests of NDIOS are completely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and beliefs of the other hosts and guests or that of NDIOS.

PODCAST:

S3E12B – Dune (book)*

SHOW NOTES:

Please join us in a disjointed conversation about the greatest story ever told. 

– Rick

WRITTEN BOOK REVIEWS:

Book: “Dune (Dune Chronicles #1) (1965)” by Frank Herbert

Ryan: 5 Stars “…f**king Dune, nuff said…”

Wilk: 5 Stars “…I recognize why people love this and like it and its overall concept, but you kind of gotta stick with it to get that out of it…”

Rick: 5 Stars “…quintessential intergalactic space opera…laden with a lot of political intrigue and a lot of great ideas…”

 

FUN FACTOIDS:

iron-maiden-piece-of-mindDuring the show, Ryan talked about Frank Herbert using omniscient point of view. A technique not commonly used in modern literature. He cited an article about this that can be found here: http://www.shmoop.com/dune/narrator-point-of-view.html. An interview conducted years about by Dalton Books with Frank Herbert and director David Lynch, was also cited by Ryan, which can be found on YouTube in multiple parts here:

Rick mentioned that hard rock group “Clutch” has a song called “Prison Planet,” from their eponymous album “Clutch.” While the lyrical contest doesn’t seem to be directly inspired by the book “Dune” it is about aliens and other good science fiction type content. Plus it’s just a great rock tune: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53qeiAVjHQU. Another well-known thrash metal act did take direct inspiration from the book for a song. The English band “Iron Maiden” released a song called “To Tame a Land” which can be found on their album “Piece of Mind.” Check out this tune on Youtube with lyrics at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y3o4okKXMU. Ironically, the author refused to let the band use the title “Dune” for this song because he wasn’t a fan of their type of music — check it out: http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=2348.

 

* DISCLAIMER: Please be advised that the views and opinions of the hosts and guests of NDIOS are completely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and beliefs of the other hosts and guests or that of NDIOS.

PODCAST:

S3E12P – Preview Episode (Dune)*

SUBJECT MATTER:

Book: “Dune (Dune Chronicles #1) (1965)” by Frank Herbert

“Here is the novel that will be forever considered a triumph of the imagination. Set on the desert planet Arrakis, Dune is the story of the boy Paul Atreides, who would become the mysterious man known as Muad’Dib. He would avenge the traitorous plot against his noble family–and would bring to fruition humankind’s most ancient and unattainable dream.

A stunning blend of adventure and mysticism, environmentalism and politics, Dune won the first Nebula Award, shared the Hugo Award, and formed the basis of what it undoubtedly the grandest epic in science fiction.” (from Amazon.com)

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Film: “Dune (1984)” by David Lynch (Kyle MacLachlan)

“Set in a distant future the year 10191 where life in the universe and space travel is dependent upon a spice Melange found only on the desert planet Arrakis or Dune; where the natives of the planet await the arrival of their Messiah who will lead them into a holy war against the evil Harkonnen empire.” (from Amazon.com)

*** * ***

SyFy: “Frank Herbert’s Dune (2000)” by John Harrison (William Hurt)

“A three-part miniseries on politics, betrayal, lust, greed and the coming of a Messiah. Based on Frank Herbert’s classic science fiction novel.” (from IMDB.com)

* DISCLAIMER: Please be advised that the views and opinions of the hosts and guests of NDIOS are completely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and beliefs of the other hosts and guests or that of NDIOS.

PODCAST:

S3E11M – The Devil Rides Out (movie)*

*** This episode was also filmed live in High Definition with the help of our special guest, Dole. So if you wish to see the fireplace crackling in the background and watch us slog down make-shift snifters of dark craft brewery while Wilk rants on a tiny monitor via Skype–click the video below or visit our YouTube channel (Please note that the battery cut out for the last segment of the show, but the audio feed continues on unabated).***

 

SHOW NOTES:

An NDIOS breakfast gathering!

Wilk, Ryan and Rick

Wilk, Rick and Ryan

Wilk, Rick and Ryan

A hampered production that almost didn’t happen. A twisted tale of darkness, Satanism, and violence. All of these things were present in the recording of the movie episode this month. An impossible to find movie, one that forced Wilk to fall back into the darknet, in an effort to bring this satanic celluloid to the service… We watched “The Devil Rides out,” so you don’t have to. The crew thought it was great…and it was. Clearly a movie that highlighted the golden era of horror, made by Hammer Studios and dumped unwittingly on the American Public, we allowed it to be dumped by us. It was faithful to the book, as much as it could be. Richard Matheson, author of show favorite “I Am Legend” was the screenwriter and adapter. It was over the top, screaming, hellbound horror. I believe the reviews ranged from 3.5 to 4.5 stars. And we all felt that if you can find it, you should watch it. So, until next time, bring the Talisman of Set and set it to shimmer and shine, because there is no deodorant in outer space!

– Wilk

WRITTEN FILM REVIEWS:

Book: “The Devil Rides Out (1968)” by Terence Fisher (Christopher Lee)

Ryan: 4 Stars “…it was a fun, rompy, B-movie ride…”

Wilk: 4 Stars “…It’s a four star culty movie from the sixties…it’s fun to watch if you can find it…”

Rick: 3 Stars “…only because it’s like an older movie, I don’t have any resonance with older movies…I tend to fall asleep with all older movies…”

Dole (special guest): 5 Stars “…This is a great film…the color, the ambiance, Christopher Lee just rock’n it man–he’s got so much attitude you just can’t stop listening to him…”

 

 

FUN FACTOIDS:

misfits_-_static_age_coverSpecial guest, John Doyle (a/k/a Dole), is also in a metal band called, “I Decline.” Find their music on iTunes and their website: http://www.i-decline.com/. During the recording the group made reference to the legendary hardcore punk album album “Static Age” by the Misfits. John’s band used to cover one of the songs that was originally from this album. Here’s a link that song “Bullet” on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUZHxYFbCl4.

how-to-avoid-murder-logo

Lastly, Wilk and his wife Laura Valle started a true crime podcast called, “How to Avoid Murder …and other awkward situations.” Wilk mentioned visiting some historical murder sites during a recent trip to Illinois as part of research for his show. You can catch episodes by them on iTunes and their website.

The website for their podcast is: http://www.avoidmurder.com/. You can also find it on iTunes here: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-avoid-murder-other/id1187366565?mt=2

 

* DISCLAIMER: Please be advised that the views and opinions of the hosts and guests of NDIOS are completely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and beliefs of the other hosts and guests or that of NDIOS.

PODCAST:

S3E11B – The Devil Rides Out (book)* 

*** This episode was also filmed live in High Definition with the help of our special guest, Dole. So if you wish to see the fireplace crackling in the background and watch us slog down make-shift snifters of dark craft brewery while Wilk rants on a tiny monitor via Skype–click the video below or visit our YouTube channel. ***

 

SHOW NOTES:

Ready to podcast!

Dole, Rick and Ryan

Craft Brewery!

Barrel-Aged Old Rasputin Russian Imperial Stout, 3 Floyd’s Russian-Style Imperial Stout Dark Lord (vanilla bean), Goose Island Bourbon County Brand Stout

This month I had Ryan and Dole over to record. They are great guests. I estimate they brought in $150 worth of craft beer. First time I ever tried the “Dark Lord,” from 3 Floyds Brewing Co.. It was aged a few years and bottle 175 of 800, or something like that. Very special, so much so, I was compelled to ceremoniously place my goat statue on the mantelpiece for the evening’s events. If only my Wiccan cloaks were back from the dry cleaners, I believe we might have conjured the Dark Lord himself. The recording almost didn’t happen as Wilk threatened to prematurely go to bed or watch a movie with Laura (his wife) or something. The technical difficulties Ryan and Dole had were colossal and postponed our start time by about an hour, but they persevered. Despite the late start time and a black hole vortex on the other end of the Skype call in Michigan, we managed to have a quality recording. Come back any time fellas. We need to practice the occult more often!

– Rick

 

WRITTEN BOOK REVIEWS:

Book: “The Devil Rides Out (Black Magic #1) (1934)” by Dennis Wheatley

Ryan: 4 Stars “…Why I’m not giving it five stars is because that…I thought the ending–it wraps up things a little bit too conveniently…

Wilk: 3 Stars “…I liked the audiobooks…it was kinda entertaining it felt like I was watching a Tarzan movie…with Satan in it…

Rick:  3 1/2 Stars “…I do appreciate the fact that it was grounded in a lot of research and facts…

Dole (special guest): 4 Stars “…I felt creeped out by it just because there was so much real stuff in the book I felt like dirty reading it…

(Click the links to read full written reviews on Goodreads.com)

 

FUN FACTOIDS:

aleister_crowleyDuring the episode we talked about the author doing extensive research to add an element of realism to this work. As part of his studies Wheatley interviewed none other than the infamous occultist, Aleister Crowley who had previously gained notoriety with his interest in black magic and residence at the “Boleskin House” (later owned for a time by guitarist Jimmy Page  of Led Zepplin). Rockstar and metal icon Ozzy Osbourne would later have hit a song about this man called Mr. Crowley (here’s a link to a live version on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3LvhdFEOqs).

One of the interesting bits of research in the book that was mentioned by Wheatley, was the act of hypnotizing chickens by simply drawing a line in the ground. You can watch demonstrations of this strange phenomena on YouTube videos such as this one: https://youtu.be/sqZZ95L2n7o

Dennis Wheatley was a part of the war effort during World War II when he was engaged to use his creativity to write various war papers including a treatise on how Britain could be invaded. He was a member of the London Controlling Section which worked on secret coordinated strategic military deception and cover plans (see Wikipedia article on Dennis Wheatley). One such famous plan that came out of this department was “Operation Mincemeat,” which involved planting fake invasion plans in a corpse and letting it be discovered to divert Germany’s attention from the real battle plans.  The BBC produced a special (A Letter To Posterity) on Wheatley’s life that discusses a letter written by the author that was sealed in a time capsule and left for the world to discover at a later date. You can check this out on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeXEj2_v6i4&app=desktop

Returning special guest, John Doyle (a/k/a Dole), came on the show and talked about some recent studio time with his metal band, “I Decline.” They continue to work on their epic, space trilogy project known as “The Galaxies,” which is being produced by Sandford Parker. Find their music on iTunes and their website: http://www.i-decline.com.

John wrote and composed the theme music for the podcast, helped on our video special (Video Special: Culver Indiana and Vonnegut: a documentary), and has joined us on other past episodes including: “Nineteen Eighty-Four” by George Orwell (book) and “Something Wicked This Way Comes” by Ray Bradbury (book).

 

* DISCLAIMER: Please be advised that the views and opinions of the hosts and guests of NDIOS are completely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and beliefs of the other hosts and guests or that of NDIOS.